
Several years ago I agreed to debate a Muslim named Nadir Ahmed from Examine The Truth. I was reluctant because we had already debated (via email) before and it was fairly fruitless. However, a friend at Answering-Islam.Org encouraged me to go along with it. So we had the debate. It was also fairly fruitless and I pretty much forgot about it. But recently people have started mentioning it again. Weird. Well, I discovered that the debate has been posted on YouTube and several other websites (I have no idea who posted it nor have I listened to them, so I can only assume they have not been edited). Well, there you have it. So I decided to use this as an opportunity to comment on the debate and discuss biblical morality as well.
To begin with, Nadir refused to debate me according to a format which would have allowed for carefully considered responses to opening statements. The format he demanded was this: First there would be two opening statements, each about 15 minutes long (Nadir “volunteered” to go first, and then announced that he would also be the moderator . . . unbelievable!) Second, there would be a nonstop “crossfire session” where we each would get 60 seconds to ask and answer questions of each other (Nadir went first here too, which pretty much tanked any possibility of me getting the time to ask my own questions. I learned that falsehood favors the sound bite - it’s just too easy to ask a question in 60 seconds that might require 60 minutes to answer adequately. Unfortunately I was not prepared to take advantage of this format flaw as was Nadir). Finally, we had some audience Q&A for about 30 minutes (in this section we only were allowed to respond to questions specifically asked of us. Also, as this was a “G” rated room, we were warned and / or muted several times by the room boss when sexual issues arose. This made it extremely difficult in a debate concerning sexual ethics!).
Nadir’s basic contention is that the Bible does not speak to the moral issues of our day and that therefore the kind of rampant sin Christians speak out against is actually biblically allowed and tacitly approved. Nadir’s basic (and completely unproved or even argued for) assumption is that if the Bible does not specifically and in great detail address an issue then it must be acceptable. Nadir’s example was that since the Bible does not say anything about driving cars, then obviously driving cars must be acceptable. Further, anything that is acceptable to God is also encouraged by God. Thus, if wearing a miniskirt is not specifically addressed in detail then God must want people to wear them. My position was that this is not how Christian ethics works. The Bible itself does not affirm this system of moral authority. In fact, the Bible teaches that there are multiple ways in which God has revealed His moral will including conscience, wisdom, the Holy Spirit, Government, etc. (See the chart below for more details.) Taken as a whole, God’s revelation is sufficient for all moral decisions (2 tim. 3:16-17) so any lack is on our part - not the Bible’s.
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Concerning the specifics of the debate, my opening argument countered the idea that the Christian must be able to produce a specific and detailed Bible verse for every possible moral scenario. Christian morality is based on both general revelation (conscience) and special revelation (scriptural commands). This argument completely undercut Nadir’s position, yet he never rebutted it. In fact, Nadir’s contention that Christians may only use the Bible actually counters his own position because the Bible itself commands the use of extra-biblical sources of morality! Nadir also has a penchant for pitting the Bible (a book) against Islam (a religion). But Islam’s teachings are not limited to the Quran any more than Christianity is limited only to the Bible. Extra-scriptural writings and traditional interpretations are appealed to in Islam just like in Christianity, yet Nadir will have nothing of these kinds of sources when referenced by Christians. This is a classic case of special pleading.
As to Nadir’s constant demand for specific and detailed rules, I pointed out that the while Bible does have many instances of these it also makes use of general categorical commands. For example, some argue that the Bible does not have anything to say about an abortion procedure. But because abortion fits the category of murder abortion a sin because the Bible commands us not to murder. I do not need to know specific details about how a murder is done to know it is wrong. Nadir did not successfully rebut this argument either. So even if I had not provided one shred of biblical refutation against his opening arguments I still would have won because the understanding of Christian morality that I presented completely undermined the foundation of his position. Because Nadir never refuted (nor, in some cases, even attempted to refute) my points about Christian morality being based on more than specific, detailed, biblical commands, I was free throughout the debate to reference conscience, wisdom, the Holy Spirit, etc. to bolster the historic Christian understanding of these issues.
Nadir’s tactic was to argue based on descriptions of actions he claimed are moral evils (or at least things most Christians would say are evil - other than the millions he claims he knows who disagree) that the Bible encourages by not saying anything about them. He concludes that Islam is superior because it does speak directly to these issues. He did not back up his unwarranted claim that Christian morality must be found in direct and specific commands in the Bible. Since I had argued for categorical commands, conscience, the witness of the Holy Spirit, Government authority, etc., for Nadir to win the debate he would have had to argue against their use. But he did not. He also appealed to certain question-begging word definitions which I countered by quoting from the authoritative Greek Lexicon (see notes below). He then reverted to saying that because the Bible was not written in English we can’t know what it means anyway. Well which is it? First he argues be misrepresenting the meaning of biblical words, then claims that the meaning of biblical words cannot be known!
I answered Nadir’s arguments with appeals to scriptural word meanings in their context plus the varied sources of morality available to the scripturally knowledgeable Christian and he simply kept responding with his mantra of “the Bible doesn’t teach this.” Repetition, however, is not an argument. The problem is that when Nadir’s arguments are seriously challenged he often simply returns to his original conclusion as if no counter-argument had been made. Then, when he predictably receives repeated refutations of his repeated assertions he concludes that he has “hammered his opponent into merely repeating himself.” But this is not sound argumentation, this is posturing in the hopes that the louder and more repetitive one is the more believable one becomes. Unfortunately this trick works in a sound bite style debate with an untrained audience. In a debate two sides bring arguments to the table and then attempt to rebut each other’s arguments while supporting their own. Thus, there is an objective component to whether or not a debate was won. My position undercut the foundation of Nadir’s entire position, yet he did not offer a refutation. Rhetorical issues notwithstanding, you can’t win a debate if you don’t answer your opponent! This is not me being arrogant; it’s just how debates work (for some third party reviews see soc.religion.islam).
SUMMARY
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NADIR’S ARGUMENTS
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MY RESPONSES
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Explanation of Islamic monotheism, comparison of incarnation to pagan religions, claimed scientific evidence exists for the Koran, challenged Christian apologists to debate him.
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Not only was this completely off of the agreed topic, we specifically agreed beforehand NOT to debate this issue. No response was necessary, but I mentioned the Bible’s unique miraculous support anyway and moved on.
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Whatever the Bible does not condemn it endorses.
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The Bible condones and condemns many particular ethical behaviors within given categories even when those particulars are not specified or described in detail.
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Skimpy outfits, flirting, Brittany Spears, cheer leading, etc. all fit biblical morality (later this list included “everything but intercourse”)
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The Bible clearly commands against lust, immodesty, and causing others to stumble into sin. Further people have the witness of conscience, moral laws, believers have the Holy Spirit’s leading, plus it is unwise.
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Mt. 5:28 won’t work because “lust” means only desiring (he changed this definition several times throughout the debate, sometimes adding the “forbidden aspect,” sometimes only “what is not yours”).
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I provided the authoritative definition showing that whether or not one’s desire is sinful depends on the object of desire. Deliberately causing someone to lust in this way is sinful.
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1 Tim. 2:9 won’t work because “modesty” only means not wearing expensive clothes in this context. (Later - “modesty is personal and so cannot be judged”).
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I provided the authoritative definition showing that modesty relates to respect and reverence of those around you. Further, “discreetly” here refers to moderation, good judgment, and self-control. Nadir ignores this word. Finally I also pointed out that in the very same sentence Paul urges women to INSTEAD put on good works - thus a clear contrast between good and bad behavior.
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Christians “grossly misinterpret” verses in the Bible to suit themselves and then judge others based on their own subjective feelings.
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These are arguments against his own interpretations.This is called the Straw Man Fallacy. As he could not provide any authoritative source for his interpretations this claim is moot.
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MY ARGUMENTS
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NADIR’S RESPONSES
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| Morality must be rooted in God and God communicates through both general and special revelation. |
None
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| The Bible, being God’s word, is sufficient for all righteousness (2 Tim. 3:16). |
None
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| The Bible itself lists several sources of moral knowledge including conscience, wisdom, the Holy Spirit’s witness, government, etc. |
None
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| The Bible uses both general principles and specific commands in its special communication of morality. |
None
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| This biblical ethical system could be true even if someone disagrees that it is the best way, because that is how God decided to do it. |
None
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| This biblical ethical system has also been shown to be true empirically. Christians are, in general, known for affirming high ethical standards (even though they may fail to live them out). This can be seen even in the way Christians are caricatured by the media as goody-goodies (or lambasted as hypocrites when they do not live up to biblical standards). It is simply not the case that Christianity is known for immorality. |
Nadir claimed to know of millions of Christians who are out doing “Girls Gone Wild” videos.
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Nadir’s fundamental assumption of a flawed ethical idealism may obscure the fact his arguments prove nothing more than that the Bible is not as specific as he would like it to be. Well, I agree - the Bible is not as specific as he would like it to be. The real question is whether or not this is a problem. If it is this has yet to be proven. Just because someone might like God to have done things differently does not prove God wrong. If God decided to use categorical laws and extra-biblical sources to communicate His moral will then who is Nadir to question that decision? I am willing to bet on God as the better judge of how to communicate morality!
In fact, there was one question during the Q&A that beautifully illustrated the difficulty in Nadir’s idealized model for moral authority. A girl asked what Christianity and Islam would think of a person marrying a person who had undergone “sex-change” surgery. I answered that because of the nature of humanity the person’s gender was not actually changed, therefore it would still fall into the category of homosexuality. But Nadir had nothing to say! He admitted that he had no answer for her. This is exactly what happens when one demands a specific and detailed rule for every moral decision. Once something new comes along you have no direction. Nadir could not answer because the Koran says nothing specifically or in detail about this matter, but what is worse - according to his principle of “if it doesn’t say anything about it it must be acceptable and endorsed” he should have concluded that Islam endorses people having sex change operations and getting married! Now of course Islam teaches no such thing, but Nadir cannot explain why it does not teach that based on his own system of moral interpretation.
The problem that Nadir does not seem to grasp is that the letter of the law does not promote wisdom, character, or virtue - which are the results of thinking through problems and acting rightly regardless of fear of punishment. Islam offers many specific and detailed laws (as did the pharasaical form of Judaism that Jesus so despised), but this offers almost nothing in character development (Nadir provided his own example of this fact when he said he would like to try drugs but hasn’t because the Quran says not to). But acting morally merely out of fear of punishment is no more virtuous than my dog peeing outside to avoid a spanking.
Muslims may persist in claiming that the Bible is inadequate because it does not provide the detail they want. But we Christians will, as we have for the last 2,000 years, continue to be held accountable to moral virtues anyway.
Notes on Definitions
“MODESTY”
1 Tim. 2:9 - “Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly [aidos] and discreetly [sophrosune].”
aidos:
1. modesty (of women 1 Ti 2:9)
2. reverence, respectsophrosune:
1. reasonableness, rationality, mental soundness
2. good judgment, moderation, self-control.
“LUST”
epithumia:
desire, longing, craving.
1. as a neutral term, desires for other things Mk 4:19.
2. in a good sense have a longing for something Phil 1:23
3. in a bad sense as a desire for something forbidden in accordance with physical desire alone to satisfy the desires of the body: gambling, drunkenness and gluttony are called many foolish desires (1 Ti 6:9); youthful desires (2 Ti 2:22); in accordance w. their own desires (4:3); the desires that ruled over you formerly, when you were ignorant (1 Pt 1:14) defiling passion (2 Pt 2:10). deceptive desires (Eph. 4:22).
| Source: Arndt, William, F. Wilbur Gingrich, Frederick W. Danker, and Walter Bauer. A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature. Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1996. |





